An Interview with Lama Lodu Rinpoche
This interview was conducted by one of Lama Lodu Rinpoche's longtime students in Summer 2008
Question: The great Atisha said that “the lama is ones own virtuous mind.” How does Atisha’s statement relate our view of His Holiness the 17th Karmapa?
Lama Lodu Rinpoche : The lama’s mind, pure and fully developed is liberated from suffering and so generates great benefit to all sentient beings. Through our devotion and recognition of those perfected qualities in His Holiness the 17th Karmapa, we may come to realize, in the highest sense, the truth of Atisha’s teaching.
Q: You mean that our mind is the same as His Holiness’?
LLR: Our relative mind is obscured and confused, but after countless eons of purification and the accumulation of merit, a deep and powerful devotion arises which creates the wisdom to see the qualities and perfections of the lama. This is called “uncontrived devotion.” It is this uncontrived devotion which invokes the lama’s wisdom mind. And so our mind can merge with the stainless mind of the lama. And then our own mind is equal, is undifferentiated, from the lama’s mind.
Q: There are four aphorisms called the “Four Reliances.” Would you comment on these with relation to His Holiness the 17th Karmapa? The first is, “rely on the message of the teacher not his personality.”
LLR: In an absolute sense the message is what we rely on. The message comes from the enlightened mind of the teacher. But personality matters as well; it can intensify the teacher’s beneficial activity. With His Holiness, the 17th Karmapa, the stainless quality of his outward manner; his unparalleled compassion is felt by all who see him. Instantly there arises the recognition that what they have encountered is a being of profound purity, someone who can help them. The power of His Holiness’ personality reaches out and connects with every level of humankind, transforming them and opening their hearts to his message. His Holiness, the 17th Karmapa is free of the extremes expressed in the adage you asked about because in His Holiness’ case his personality powerfully reflects the truth of his message, there is no distinction between them.
Q: What about in the case of other teachers?
LLR: Beginners may have difficulty comprehending the teachings of the Buddhadharma due to their limited wisdom. And so they rely on observing the every-day manners, characteristics, and behavior of the teacher; what these beginners think they see in the teacher is what they learn of the dharma. This can be risky. On the surface, some behavior may look good, but the inside is rotten. Conversely, some behaviors may appear to contradict the teachings, but are actually skillful methods to benefit beings. The great teacher Marpa was certainly an example of the latter case. Relatively speaking, his treatment of Milarepa was very abusive. Yet Marpa’s wisdom approach allowed Milarepa to awaken to the true nature of mind in one lifetime. So in this case, Marpa’s personality appeared problematical, even though his message was pure compassion. Other Mahasiddhas’ stories illustrate the same point.
Q: Thank you, Rinpoche. The second reliance says, “rely on the meaning not just the words.” How do we understand His Holiness’ meaning apart from his words?
LLR: Though they may hear the same words, different individuals hear different meanings. True meaning, true understanding of the words depends on the qualifications of the disciple, how advanced the disciple is. At the same time, it falls on the teacher to convey the meaning in words conducive to the mind of the student. If the teacher is qualified, if he or she is completely awakened, that teacher will automatically use the right words which communicate the true meaning.
Q: So a qualified teacher will spontaneously speak in a manner that a student will understand?
LLR: A qualified teacher, yes.
Q: His Holiness Karmapa?
LLR: Definitely His Holiness Orgyen Trinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa.
Q: The day Karmapa came to your center in San Francisco there were many people desperate to see his face, breathe the same air and so forth. Is that a superstitious attitude? Where does it come from?
LLR: I think some attitudes can be artificial. People who have heard of Karmapa, who have seen his picture on TV or in the newspapers or in Time magazine know only that he is famous. So they are curious to see him, to be near him in the way people act toward a famous movie actor. This type of motivation doesn’t have too much spiritual content. For others, the connection is more meaningful. They are aware of the lineage, that in Tibet His Holiness is a renowned spiritual leader, not just this century, but for hundreds of years in the past, for generations. He is a great master and his purity and enlightened compassion attracts people. Some believe in “liberation by seeing” which fulfills all good wishes: long life, good health, a peaceful mind filled with loving kindness and compassion. These are their expectations. Many people have a strong karmic connection from a past life. They comprehend His Holiness’ qualities, they know he is an enlightened being and they desperately want to see him. People may be at the end of their life, and so they wish to experience a peaceful mind, passing from this life to the next. They crave Karmapa’s blessings to achieve this.
Q: Rinpoche, you spoke of three ways that people view Karmapa, what is the highest view?
LLR: Generally in Tibet His Holiness is considered an emanation of Chenrezig, a pure expression of loving kindness and compassion, one who embodies the qualities of Buddhas, past, present, and future. This is what most Tibetan people believe. In America most Buddhists have the same view of Orgyen, Trinley Dorje, the 17th Karmapa. Westerners have great devotion. Western people study and practice and so their devotion comes from these efforts. Through meditation their devotion to His Holiness becomes permanent, unshakable, not based on blind faith. We have hope that Buddha’s teachings will continue to take root in America, and that this country will become an important site for those wishing to study the Buddhadharma. Even now there are may more esoteric, profound teachings available to United States dharma students than in India.
Q: The third reliance states: “rely on the real meaning not the provisional meaning.”
LLR: The provisional meaning, the relative meaning, is a fake, it is interdependent origination; we see a table, we call it a table, but if we take the table a part, piece-by-piece, there is no table, no table essence. Real meaning, absolute meaning is emptiness unimpeded and luminous. The real meaning of His Holiness is that there is no His Holiness, the notion of His Holiness is a convention, a relative, provisional concept. The real meaning of His Holiness is Dharmakaya, beyond existence and nonexistence: the spontaneous appearance of compassion and wisdom for the benefit of all beings.
Q: Thank you. The final reliance states: “rely on our wisdom mind, not on our ordinary, judgmental mind.”
LLR: We gain wisdom-mind through study and reflection and meditation. The most effective of those three techniques is meditation. Wisdom mind keeps us on the path; relying on judgmental, ordinary, or relative mind reinforces self-clinging which is why we’ve remained from beginning less time in samsara.
Q: Thank you very much, Rinpoche.
LLR: You are welcome.
Lama Lodu Rinpoche, Spiritual director of Kagyu Droden Kunchab, is a preeminent scholar, teacher and accomplished Vajrayana master. He is the author of Bardo Teachings: The Way of Death and Rebirth , published by Snow Lion, Quintessence of the Animate and Inanimate, available through Snow Lion, Attaining Enlightenment, and a soon to be released revised edition of Garden of All Joy, a commentary and manual for the practice of Chöd (Snow Publications). One of the first lamas to introduce Tibetan Buddhism to Western students, Lama Lodu Rinpoche has taught extensively in North America, Asia, and Europe. Rinpoche has resided in San Francisco since 1974 after being appointed director of Kagyu Droden Kunchab. One of the most accessible and generous teachers of Tibetan Buddhism, Rinpoche established KDK satellite centers throughout the San Francisco Bay Area as well as Oregon, Arizona, and Missouri.
Kagyu Droden Kunchab is located at 1892 Fell Street, San Francisco, CA 94117, (415) 752-5454.
